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	<title>Comments on: CofConomics: Congregation Size and the Theory of the Firm</title>
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	<link>http://saintsherald.com/2009/08/29/cofconomics-congregation-size-and-the-theory-of-the-firm/</link>
	<description>The Center Place of the Community of Christ Bloggitorium</description>
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		<title>By: Doug Gregory</title>
		<link>http://saintsherald.com/2009/08/29/cofconomics-congregation-size-and-the-theory-of-the-firm/#comment-592</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Doug Gregory]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Sep 2009 12:55:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://saintsherald.com/?p=257#comment-592</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I am probably not an effective missionary (although I hope I am an effective emmisary), and that may well say more about me and my generation than it does pointing to the need to have professional missionaries.

As a product manager for much of my life, I am getting more impressed with the quality of our product message.  Our execution of that product in our branches is not good (good design, lousy production).  I continue to believe we need a new model for our production (branches).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am probably not an effective missionary (although I hope I am an effective emmisary), and that may well say more about me and my generation than it does pointing to the need to have professional missionaries.</p>
<p>As a product manager for much of my life, I am getting more impressed with the quality of our product message.  Our execution of that product in our branches is not good (good design, lousy production).  I continue to believe we need a new model for our production (branches).</p>
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		<title>By: Margie Miller</title>
		<link>http://saintsherald.com/2009/08/29/cofconomics-congregation-size-and-the-theory-of-the-firm/#comment-588</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Margie Miller]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Sep 2009 18:52:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://saintsherald.com/?p=257#comment-588</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[And that&#039;s when  we used to have our missionaries in America doing series of meetings to which we could invite our friends. Often baptisms came out of those.

Let&#039;s just face it...most of us are not effective missionaries. We need the professionals to do that work.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And that&#8217;s when  we used to have our missionaries in America doing series of meetings to which we could invite our friends. Often baptisms came out of those.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s just face it&#8230;most of us are not effective missionaries. We need the professionals to do that work.</p>
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		<title>By: Margie Miller</title>
		<link>http://saintsherald.com/2009/08/29/cofconomics-congregation-size-and-the-theory-of-the-firm/#comment-587</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Margie Miller]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Sep 2009 18:47:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Is the Community of Christ in a similar position?&quot;

Of what would we be a cheap imitation, Matt?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Is the Community of Christ in a similar position?&#8221;</p>
<p>Of what would we be a cheap imitation, Matt?</p>
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		<title>By: FireTag</title>
		<link>http://saintsherald.com/2009/08/29/cofconomics-congregation-size-and-the-theory-of-the-firm/#comment-586</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[FireTag]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Sep 2009 17:53:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://saintsherald.com/?p=257#comment-586</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think your illustration says a lot. I thought to myself, &quot;What&#039;s a Cadillac Cimarron?&quot; And I wasn&#039;t having a senior moment.

The 1950&#039;s in certainly the critical time -- that&#039;s when our baptisms in the RLDS peaked at ~5x what they are today.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think your illustration says a lot. I thought to myself, &#8220;What&#8217;s a Cadillac Cimarron?&#8221; And I wasn&#8217;t having a senior moment.</p>
<p>The 1950&#8242;s in certainly the critical time &#8212; that&#8217;s when our baptisms in the RLDS peaked at ~5x what they are today.</p>
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		<title>By: mattfrizzell</title>
		<link>http://saintsherald.com/2009/08/29/cofconomics-congregation-size-and-the-theory-of-the-firm/#comment-585</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[mattfrizzell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:05:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://saintsherald.com/?p=257#comment-585</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Interesting post, Matt, especially as I work on my dissertation on theology and economy.  But, I don&#039;t want to argue theory.

I haven&#039;t read the astute comments above, so forgive me if I am redundant.

I&#039;ll just make this point about theory.  I think there is alot to be learned from thinking this way.  However, the fatal flaw of such an approach, I think, is the problem of quantification.  In the end, I believe economics is phenomenological, but attempts to legitimate itself with endless output of mathematical models. I don&#039;t want to snub these models.  They have definite application - far more, most would say - than theology.  

To go down this road, would push us to get very clear about what &quot;product&quot; an increase in productivity would produce.  The validity of any model is to apply it and test it; manipulate it.  

I have a tendency to believe that RLDSism, by the 1950&#039;s, was no longer a religion interested in the market.  Today, the market of existing members is very different than non-RLDS members, therefore, the nature of our product, i.e. what capital and labor actually produce, is undecided.  I think that describes some of where we are.  

This is an awful illustration, but it says something.  You may remember that in 1981 Cadillac came out with the Cimarron.  The Cimarron was built on the same body as the Chevy Cavalier.  And it showed.  It looked like a Chevy Cavalier with a Cadillac hood ornament.  Sales were awful.

Is the Community of Christ in a similar position?  

If we can clarify some of this, most importantly at a local level, we might be able to start apply the type of thinking you are trying here more effectively.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting post, Matt, especially as I work on my dissertation on theology and economy.  But, I don&#8217;t want to argue theory.</p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t read the astute comments above, so forgive me if I am redundant.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll just make this point about theory.  I think there is alot to be learned from thinking this way.  However, the fatal flaw of such an approach, I think, is the problem of quantification.  In the end, I believe economics is phenomenological, but attempts to legitimate itself with endless output of mathematical models. I don&#8217;t want to snub these models.  They have definite application &#8211; far more, most would say &#8211; than theology.  </p>
<p>To go down this road, would push us to get very clear about what &#8220;product&#8221; an increase in productivity would produce.  The validity of any model is to apply it and test it; manipulate it.  </p>
<p>I have a tendency to believe that RLDSism, by the 1950&#8242;s, was no longer a religion interested in the market.  Today, the market of existing members is very different than non-RLDS members, therefore, the nature of our product, i.e. what capital and labor actually produce, is undecided.  I think that describes some of where we are.  </p>
<p>This is an awful illustration, but it says something.  You may remember that in 1981 Cadillac came out with the Cimarron.  The Cimarron was built on the same body as the Chevy Cavalier.  And it showed.  It looked like a Chevy Cavalier with a Cadillac hood ornament.  Sales were awful.</p>
<p>Is the Community of Christ in a similar position?  </p>
<p>If we can clarify some of this, most importantly at a local level, we might be able to start apply the type of thinking you are trying here more effectively.</p>
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		<title>By: Margie Miller</title>
		<link>http://saintsherald.com/2009/08/29/cofconomics-congregation-size-and-the-theory-of-the-firm/#comment-573</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Margie Miller]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Sep 2009 11:00:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Tradition, I guess. I think meeting in the homes like PINCH does and our &quot;Living the Questions&quot; group does is so much more intimate and satisfying than &quot;doing church&quot; and shares a lot more ministry.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tradition, I guess. I think meeting in the homes like PINCH does and our &#8220;Living the Questions&#8221; group does is so much more intimate and satisfying than &#8220;doing church&#8221; and shares a lot more ministry.</p>
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		<title>By: FireTag</title>
		<link>http://saintsherald.com/2009/08/29/cofconomics-congregation-size-and-the-theory-of-the-firm/#comment-572</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[FireTag]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Sep 2009 04:11:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://saintsherald.com/?p=257#comment-572</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Margie: Your observation matches mine, but I wonder why we see our legacy of accomplishment as buildings -- not lives?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Margie: Your observation matches mine, but I wonder why we see our legacy of accomplishment as buildings &#8212; not lives?</p>
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		<title>By: Margie Miller</title>
		<link>http://saintsherald.com/2009/08/29/cofconomics-congregation-size-and-the-theory-of-the-firm/#comment-571</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Margie Miller]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2009 18:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://saintsherald.com/?p=257#comment-571</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Possibly not. However, it was the wish of my congregation and I would have been outvoted in 2000, when we built this church.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Possibly not. However, it was the wish of my congregation and I would have been outvoted in 2000, when we built this church.</p>
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		<title>By: FireTag</title>
		<link>http://saintsherald.com/2009/08/29/cofconomics-congregation-size-and-the-theory-of-the-firm/#comment-570</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[FireTag]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2009 18:20:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://saintsherald.com/?p=257#comment-570</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Margie:

My sympathies to your bureaucratic complications. With government benefits, there comes government taxes, and government reporting requirements to ensure the government can find all the taxes to collect. With property and a society that likes to hit litigation jackpots comes the need for huge insurance pools and high insurance rates.

Your congregation is certainly involved, Margie, but if you were starting from scratch today to fulfill the mission as you understand it, would you build a church building as the way to do it?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Margie:</p>
<p>My sympathies to your bureaucratic complications. With government benefits, there comes government taxes, and government reporting requirements to ensure the government can find all the taxes to collect. With property and a society that likes to hit litigation jackpots comes the need for huge insurance pools and high insurance rates.</p>
<p>Your congregation is certainly involved, Margie, but if you were starting from scratch today to fulfill the mission as you understand it, would you build a church building as the way to do it?</p>
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		<title>By: Margie Miller</title>
		<link>http://saintsherald.com/2009/08/29/cofconomics-congregation-size-and-the-theory-of-the-firm/#comment-566</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Margie Miller]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2009 01:23:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://saintsherald.com/?p=257#comment-566</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;10. We need to treat our facilities as assets that can be leveraged to support mission. We have hundreds of millions of dollars tied up in facilities that get used 3 – 5 hours per week, if we are lucky. That is not good stewardship, especially for an entity that is struggling financially to support our mission.&quot;

One of the problems with this is the one we encountered when we wanted to use our new building as a gathering place. We allowed two child care training groups to use the building and two scrap booking groups. That put it being used four more evenings every couple of weeks, plus our own use. We wanted it to be a community center and gathering place for them. 

When the world church learned this, they informed me that every group using &quot;their&quot; building would have to have a million dollars in insurance. The scrap booking groups could just sign a lease agreement.They would need three copies of the lease agreement.

Then they learned that we paid an independent business man to mow our five acres. Now we have to file a form every year with the IRS. Now the only thing we pay him for is the mowing. He has his own equipment. But they insist he is &quot;our&quot; employee....even though he mows for many others. 

Many of our 32 members are deeply involved in the community. I know I am. I have a column called the Minister&#039;s Message on a rotating basis in one newspaper. I also do an Editorial on a rotating basis in another newspaper. I do the invocation at City Commission meetings and County Commission meetings. We do a monthly Sunday afternoon worship service at a nursing home. Bob and I also belong to an organization called PINCH, which works at  socializing the black community with the white community. We also participate in a &quot;Living the Question&quot; group every other Sunday evening. We watch a &quot;Living the Questions&quot; video and have a discussion about the material afterward. We have five Methodists, two Presbyterians, two Baptists, one agnostic, and three Community of Christ folks. 

One couple of our congregation are very active in their local VFW and are on the board of the senior citizen group in their community.

Another woman is active in Hospice. She sits weekly with a woman who is in the process of dying.

I could go on and on but I think you get the drift. We may be 32 but we are an involved 32. 

We have great fellowship and get along well together. We have nine who come regularly that are not members.
Seven friends of the church attend our Peace Colloquy with me and they love it. They think we are engaged. Are we?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;10. We need to treat our facilities as assets that can be leveraged to support mission. We have hundreds of millions of dollars tied up in facilities that get used 3 – 5 hours per week, if we are lucky. That is not good stewardship, especially for an entity that is struggling financially to support our mission.&#8221;</p>
<p>One of the problems with this is the one we encountered when we wanted to use our new building as a gathering place. We allowed two child care training groups to use the building and two scrap booking groups. That put it being used four more evenings every couple of weeks, plus our own use. We wanted it to be a community center and gathering place for them. </p>
<p>When the world church learned this, they informed me that every group using &#8220;their&#8221; building would have to have a million dollars in insurance. The scrap booking groups could just sign a lease agreement.They would need three copies of the lease agreement.</p>
<p>Then they learned that we paid an independent business man to mow our five acres. Now we have to file a form every year with the IRS. Now the only thing we pay him for is the mowing. He has his own equipment. But they insist he is &#8220;our&#8221; employee&#8230;.even though he mows for many others. </p>
<p>Many of our 32 members are deeply involved in the community. I know I am. I have a column called the Minister&#8217;s Message on a rotating basis in one newspaper. I also do an Editorial on a rotating basis in another newspaper. I do the invocation at City Commission meetings and County Commission meetings. We do a monthly Sunday afternoon worship service at a nursing home. Bob and I also belong to an organization called PINCH, which works at  socializing the black community with the white community. We also participate in a &#8220;Living the Question&#8221; group every other Sunday evening. We watch a &#8220;Living the Questions&#8221; video and have a discussion about the material afterward. We have five Methodists, two Presbyterians, two Baptists, one agnostic, and three Community of Christ folks. </p>
<p>One couple of our congregation are very active in their local VFW and are on the board of the senior citizen group in their community.</p>
<p>Another woman is active in Hospice. She sits weekly with a woman who is in the process of dying.</p>
<p>I could go on and on but I think you get the drift. We may be 32 but we are an involved 32. </p>
<p>We have great fellowship and get along well together. We have nine who come regularly that are not members.<br />
Seven friends of the church attend our Peace Colloquy with me and they love it. They think we are engaged. Are we?</p>
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