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	<title>Comments on: Remembering Joseph Smith, Reclaiming a Saint</title>
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	<description>The Center Place of the Community of Christ Bloggitorium</description>
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		<title>By: Doug Gregory</title>
		<link>http://saintsherald.com/2009/12/23/remembering-joseph-smith-reclaiming-a-saint/#comment-895</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug Gregory</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jan 2010 15:58:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>These contextual discussions are amazing for an average Joe like me.  Reading D&amp;C90:5 apparently is something like reading Moses&#039; account of creation.  I still marvel at how a creation story was told to Iron Age people that remains in some ways defensible.

Every prophet must be limited by their understanding, their language, and their perception of all things around them.  To accept less than this seems to be unreasonable.  Every prophet has said and done stupid things (as have all of us who share the human condition), but that does not make those insights that stand the test of time any less valid to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>These contextual discussions are amazing for an average Joe like me.  Reading D&amp;C90:5 apparently is something like reading Moses&#8217; account of creation.  I still marvel at how a creation story was told to Iron Age people that remains in some ways defensible.</p>
<p>Every prophet must be limited by their understanding, their language, and their perception of all things around them.  To accept less than this seems to be unreasonable.  Every prophet has said and done stupid things (as have all of us who share the human condition), but that does not make those insights that stand the test of time any less valid to me.</p>
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		<title>By: FireTag</title>
		<link>http://saintsherald.com/2009/12/23/remembering-joseph-smith-reclaiming-a-saint/#comment-852</link>
		<dc:creator>FireTag</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jan 2010 22:19:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://saintsherald.com/?p=353#comment-852</guid>
		<description>Jim:

The link above is in the first paragraph. I don&#039;t know why the color didn&#039;t change back to black from orange afterward.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim:</p>
<p>The link above is in the first paragraph. I don&#8217;t know why the color didn&#8217;t change back to black from orange afterward.</p>
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		<title>By: FireTag</title>
		<link>http://saintsherald.com/2009/12/23/remembering-joseph-smith-reclaiming-a-saint/#comment-851</link>
		<dc:creator>FireTag</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jan 2010 22:18:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://saintsherald.com/?p=353#comment-851</guid>
		<description>Jim:

The link is to a post on my blog entitled &lt;a href=&quot;http://thefirestillburning.wordpress.com/2009/06/03/youve-read-this-post-before/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; You&#039;ve Read this Post Before.&lt;a&gt;

It&#039;s a long post, with several links to the background physics topics for those who wish to explore. Basically, it boils down to the notion that laws of physics suggest that the physical universe is infinite in extent, but the number of configurations which can fill any parts of that universe are finite. That says the finite configurations have to be used over and over again.

You are such a configuration. So am I. So are all of us. So is the earth, the solar system, the Milky Way, etc. So physical law seems to be telling us we have copies and variations of our bodies and lives scattered in what we regard as the &quot;past&quot;, elsewhere &quot;now&quot;, and in the &quot;future&quot;.

Now, these copies and variants are just as entitled to regard themselves as having spirits as we are. After all, to them, WE are the copies.

But why should a Spirit care about the location in physical spacetime of its body? Modern physics really calls into question the assumptions of Christian theology about the relation between body and spirit just as earlier physics challenged its theological assumptions that earth was the center of God&#039;s creation.

I am suggesting that D&amp;C 90, D&amp;C 76, and the Inspired Version of early parts of Genesis are visions Joseph saw of the nature of eternal creation that are real and true, but that he had no conceptual basis to understand. He thought of space and time as absolute stages, not as shifting, mallable actors in the drama itself -- just as all of us do in everyday life.

So he tried to forcefit what he saw into the conceptual framework he had of past, present, future, creation, not created, etc. And we ended up either adopting ideas like Kolob in the LDS or, in the RLDS tradition, maintaining a pre-Restoration view of the relationship between earth and heaven with Joseph&#039;s thoughts oddly layered on (and that we don&#039;t talk about much). 

We&#039;re building our theologies of the &quot;afterlife&quot; on a faulty understanding of the nature of time itself, because even top theoretical physicists accept that no one yet understands the nature of time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim:</p>
<p>The link is to a post on my blog entitled <a href="http://thefirestillburning.wordpress.com/2009/06/03/youve-read-this-post-before/" rel="nofollow"> You&#8217;ve Read this Post Before.</a><a></p>
<p>It&#8217;s a long post, with several links to the background physics topics for those who wish to explore. Basically, it boils down to the notion that laws of physics suggest that the physical universe is infinite in extent, but the number of configurations which can fill any parts of that universe are finite. That says the finite configurations have to be used over and over again.</p>
<p>You are such a configuration. So am I. So are all of us. So is the earth, the solar system, the Milky Way, etc. So physical law seems to be telling us we have copies and variations of our bodies and lives scattered in what we regard as the &#8220;past&#8221;, elsewhere &#8220;now&#8221;, and in the &#8220;future&#8221;.</p>
<p>Now, these copies and variants are just as entitled to regard themselves as having spirits as we are. After all, to them, WE are the copies.</p>
<p>But why should a Spirit care about the location in physical spacetime of its body? Modern physics really calls into question the assumptions of Christian theology about the relation between body and spirit just as earlier physics challenged its theological assumptions that earth was the center of God&#8217;s creation.</p>
<p>I am suggesting that D&amp;C 90, D&amp;C 76, and the Inspired Version of early parts of Genesis are visions Joseph saw of the nature of eternal creation that are real and true, but that he had no conceptual basis to understand. He thought of space and time as absolute stages, not as shifting, mallable actors in the drama itself &#8212; just as all of us do in everyday life.</p>
<p>So he tried to forcefit what he saw into the conceptual framework he had of past, present, future, creation, not created, etc. And we ended up either adopting ideas like Kolob in the LDS or, in the RLDS tradition, maintaining a pre-Restoration view of the relationship between earth and heaven with Joseph&#8217;s thoughts oddly layered on (and that we don&#8217;t talk about much). </p>
<p>We&#8217;re building our theologies of the &#8220;afterlife&#8221; on a faulty understanding of the nature of time itself, because even top theoretical physicists accept that no one yet understands the nature of time.</a></p>
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		<title>By: James E Elliott</title>
		<link>http://saintsherald.com/2009/12/23/remembering-joseph-smith-reclaiming-a-saint/#comment-850</link>
		<dc:creator>James E Elliott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jan 2010 21:12:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://saintsherald.com/?p=353#comment-850</guid>
		<description>Fire Dog.
I am sorry, I missed the link you suggested. Please repeat it. Please expand on your thoughts on pre and after.  I have always thought of them in terms of some absolute, such as my lifespan, or WW2 or the life of Joseph Smith.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fire Dog.<br />
I am sorry, I missed the link you suggested. Please repeat it. Please expand on your thoughts on pre and after.  I have always thought of them in terms of some absolute, such as my lifespan, or WW2 or the life of Joseph Smith.</p>
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		<title>By: FireTag</title>
		<link>http://saintsherald.com/2009/12/23/remembering-joseph-smith-reclaiming-a-saint/#comment-849</link>
		<dc:creator>FireTag</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jan 2010 04:25:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://saintsherald.com/?p=353#comment-849</guid>
		<description>Did you try the link I gave you, Jim? 

Intelligence was not created because &quot;creation&quot; implies a time when something &quot;was not&quot; and then a time when the something &quot;was&quot;. It is a TEMPORAL concept. But there is no beginning to time, hence no act of creation. Rather, creation is an ongoing process. (Even the big bang tends to be seen now in most theories as a point within a larger physical structure -- things evolve through the bang or Bangs are multiple occurrences.)

The best (admittedly primitive) theories we have of consciousness suggest it is a natural outgrowth of complex physical states. That suggests routes by which spirits (as collective complexes of interactive minds) can emerge into the universe earlier in history than our individual minds do, because copies and variants of us have existed at many locations in space and will recur again.

Preexistence has nothing to do with &quot;pre&quot; and afterlife has nothing to do with &quot;after&quot;.

The &quot;fullnes&quot; is not only stranger than be suppose, but stranger than we CAN suppose, to paraphrase Haldane.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did you try the link I gave you, Jim? </p>
<p>Intelligence was not created because &#8220;creation&#8221; implies a time when something &#8220;was not&#8221; and then a time when the something &#8220;was&#8221;. It is a TEMPORAL concept. But there is no beginning to time, hence no act of creation. Rather, creation is an ongoing process. (Even the big bang tends to be seen now in most theories as a point within a larger physical structure &#8212; things evolve through the bang or Bangs are multiple occurrences.)</p>
<p>The best (admittedly primitive) theories we have of consciousness suggest it is a natural outgrowth of complex physical states. That suggests routes by which spirits (as collective complexes of interactive minds) can emerge into the universe earlier in history than our individual minds do, because copies and variants of us have existed at many locations in space and will recur again.</p>
<p>Preexistence has nothing to do with &#8220;pre&#8221; and afterlife has nothing to do with &#8220;after&#8221;.</p>
<p>The &#8220;fullnes&#8221; is not only stranger than be suppose, but stranger than we CAN suppose, to paraphrase Haldane.</p>
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		<title>By: James E Elliott</title>
		<link>http://saintsherald.com/2009/12/23/remembering-joseph-smith-reclaiming-a-saint/#comment-848</link>
		<dc:creator>James E Elliott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jan 2010 03:42:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://saintsherald.com/?p=353#comment-848</guid>
		<description>Thanks for directing me to Rough Stone Rolling, David.
Richard L Bushman gives his interpretation of D&amp;C 90  on pages 208-210 of his book Rough Stone Rolling.  According to Bushman, this revelation was a reply to Protestant  Perfectionists.  The following are some of his comments.

Fullness meant truth rather than holiness.

Protestant perfectionists wanted moral sanctification, Joseph wanted a perfection of knowledge.

Joseph wrote that the Glory of God is intelligence or in other words light and truth.

Holiness was not an end in itself but the avenue to intelligence.

Joseph used intelligence to describe the glory of God. The capacity for seeing and comprehending  supernaturally with the spiritual mind was the zenith of human experience.

After 90:5a, Bushman wrote :  The exact meaning of this passage is elusive and interpretations differ.  What does it mean that intelligence or the light of truth was not created or made?  Is intelligence an independent principle like a law of nature, or does intelligence refer to individual human intelligence?

Some protestants said human spirit was created along with the rest of the universe, but the revelation suggests that spirits existed before the earth.

Bushman is an eminent Mormon scholar.  But it seems that he, too, is unsure of what 90:5a means.   

Does someone else want to tell me what it means.  Some revelation!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for directing me to Rough Stone Rolling, David.<br />
Richard L Bushman gives his interpretation of D&amp;C 90  on pages 208-210 of his book Rough Stone Rolling.  According to Bushman, this revelation was a reply to Protestant  Perfectionists.  The following are some of his comments.</p>
<p>Fullness meant truth rather than holiness.</p>
<p>Protestant perfectionists wanted moral sanctification, Joseph wanted a perfection of knowledge.</p>
<p>Joseph wrote that the Glory of God is intelligence or in other words light and truth.</p>
<p>Holiness was not an end in itself but the avenue to intelligence.</p>
<p>Joseph used intelligence to describe the glory of God. The capacity for seeing and comprehending  supernaturally with the spiritual mind was the zenith of human experience.</p>
<p>After 90:5a, Bushman wrote :  The exact meaning of this passage is elusive and interpretations differ.  What does it mean that intelligence or the light of truth was not created or made?  Is intelligence an independent principle like a law of nature, or does intelligence refer to individual human intelligence?</p>
<p>Some protestants said human spirit was created along with the rest of the universe, but the revelation suggests that spirits existed before the earth.</p>
<p>Bushman is an eminent Mormon scholar.  But it seems that he, too, is unsure of what 90:5a means.   </p>
<p>Does someone else want to tell me what it means.  Some revelation!</p>
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		<title>By: FireTag</title>
		<link>http://saintsherald.com/2009/12/23/remembering-joseph-smith-reclaiming-a-saint/#comment-847</link>
		<dc:creator>FireTag</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Dec 2009 00:05:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://saintsherald.com/?p=353#comment-847</guid>
		<description>Jim:

I have often suspected Joseph saw things he did not have any conceptual framework to understand, and got himself (and his followers) into trouble by trying to connect the dots anyway and produced a picture that incorporated many false and destructive elements in it.

21st Century science has some possibilities open to us in understanding the relationship between the body, the mind, and the spirit that did not exist in the 19th. Some are just plain strange, but reality itself is just plain strange, as I discuss &lt;a href=&quot;http://thefirestillburning.wordpress.com/2009/06/03/youve-read-this-post-before/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; here. &lt;a&gt; and in the comment thread attached to it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim:</p>
<p>I have often suspected Joseph saw things he did not have any conceptual framework to understand, and got himself (and his followers) into trouble by trying to connect the dots anyway and produced a picture that incorporated many false and destructive elements in it.</p>
<p>21st Century science has some possibilities open to us in understanding the relationship between the body, the mind, and the spirit that did not exist in the 19th. Some are just plain strange, but reality itself is just plain strange, as I discuss <a href="http://thefirestillburning.wordpress.com/2009/06/03/youve-read-this-post-before/" rel="nofollow"> here. </a><a> and in the comment thread attached to it.</a></p>
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		<title>By: dhowlett</title>
		<link>http://saintsherald.com/2009/12/23/remembering-joseph-smith-reclaiming-a-saint/#comment-846</link>
		<dc:creator>dhowlett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Dec 2009 22:30:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://saintsherald.com/?p=353#comment-846</guid>
		<description>Hi Jim,
Bushman gives a fairly lucid explanation of these passages--at least what Joseph might have had in mind when he used these terms. See his Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling, pp. 208-210. Bushman makes it clear that this is his own speculation, but, given his credentials, I would say it is a very plausible reading of this passage. You can access these pages by google books (a wonderful innovation for looking things up, but perhaps problematic for publishers wanting to make money). I took your query on good faith; that is, I assumed that you were asking a genuine question and not simply posing a rhetorical question here. Happy reading!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Jim,<br />
Bushman gives a fairly lucid explanation of these passages&#8211;at least what Joseph might have had in mind when he used these terms. See his Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling, pp. 208-210. Bushman makes it clear that this is his own speculation, but, given his credentials, I would say it is a very plausible reading of this passage. You can access these pages by google books (a wonderful innovation for looking things up, but perhaps problematic for publishers wanting to make money). I took your query on good faith; that is, I assumed that you were asking a genuine question and not simply posing a rhetorical question here. Happy reading!</p>
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		<title>By: James E Elliott</title>
		<link>http://saintsherald.com/2009/12/23/remembering-joseph-smith-reclaiming-a-saint/#comment-845</link>
		<dc:creator>James E Elliott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Dec 2009 21:51:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://saintsherald.com/?p=353#comment-845</guid>
		<description>Early in this sequence, I challenged someone to explain D&amp;C 90:5a.  What does it mean that Man was with God in the beginning and intelligence can not be created.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Early in this sequence, I challenged someone to explain D&amp;C 90:5a.  What does it mean that Man was with God in the beginning and intelligence can not be created.</p>
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		<title>By: dhowlett</title>
		<link>http://saintsherald.com/2009/12/23/remembering-joseph-smith-reclaiming-a-saint/#comment-844</link>
		<dc:creator>dhowlett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Dec 2009 21:13:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://saintsherald.com/?p=353#comment-844</guid>
		<description>In the essay collection that I referenced in my original post, there is a great line that evangelical theologian Richard Mouw quotes from G.K. Chesterton and then applies to Joseph Smith. Chesterton said, “Idolatry is committed, not merely by setting up false gods, but also by setting up false devils.” Mouw wanted his fellow evangelicals to know that Joseph Smith was no devil. To call him such, Mouw asserted, was in effect to commit idolatry. The rest of Mouw&#039;s essay is an attempt to sympathetically look at Joseph Smith from a moderate evangelical perspective. It&#039;s worth reading, IMHO. 

As a historian, I find that knowing more about Joseph Smith&#039;s context makes me far less judgmental of him, and far more sympathetic. For me, he&#039;s not the bronze statue Joseph as he&#039;s portrayed at LDS historic sites, but he is not the dark charlatan of cheap turn-of-the-twentieth century anti-Mormon literature. He is truly a religious genius by any accounting, IMO.

Religions are a lot like relationships, and when people feel burned in their experience, like a broken relationship, they often tear down the person who they felt hurt them. In one of religious studies scholar Robert Orsi&#039;s books (&quot;Between Heaven and Earth&quot;), he relates how his cousin&#039;s wife died in child birth. His cousin went straight home and smashed a statue of a saint in rage. The man had prayed to the saint, and his prayers had failed. Consequently, the cousin took his revenge on the statue, as if it were a person. What a powerful illustration of the volatility of relationships in religion! They can be full of love, hate, hope, and abuse--the best and worst of human relationships.

This is all to say that I am sympathetic to pain and hurt that some present and former members of our church have had with Joseph Smith. I understand that pain. I&#039;ve experienced that myself. However, I want to lift up the idea that our complicated (perhaps for some estranged) relationship with Joseph Smith may blind us to how he has positively shaped our denomination. In Mouw&#039;s terms, we verge on idolatry by not treating him fairly. Just something to consider for the new year.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the essay collection that I referenced in my original post, there is a great line that evangelical theologian Richard Mouw quotes from G.K. Chesterton and then applies to Joseph Smith. Chesterton said, “Idolatry is committed, not merely by setting up false gods, but also by setting up false devils.” Mouw wanted his fellow evangelicals to know that Joseph Smith was no devil. To call him such, Mouw asserted, was in effect to commit idolatry. The rest of Mouw&#8217;s essay is an attempt to sympathetically look at Joseph Smith from a moderate evangelical perspective. It&#8217;s worth reading, IMHO. </p>
<p>As a historian, I find that knowing more about Joseph Smith&#8217;s context makes me far less judgmental of him, and far more sympathetic. For me, he&#8217;s not the bronze statue Joseph as he&#8217;s portrayed at LDS historic sites, but he is not the dark charlatan of cheap turn-of-the-twentieth century anti-Mormon literature. He is truly a religious genius by any accounting, IMO.</p>
<p>Religions are a lot like relationships, and when people feel burned in their experience, like a broken relationship, they often tear down the person who they felt hurt them. In one of religious studies scholar Robert Orsi&#8217;s books (&#8220;Between Heaven and Earth&#8221;), he relates how his cousin&#8217;s wife died in child birth. His cousin went straight home and smashed a statue of a saint in rage. The man had prayed to the saint, and his prayers had failed. Consequently, the cousin took his revenge on the statue, as if it were a person. What a powerful illustration of the volatility of relationships in religion! They can be full of love, hate, hope, and abuse&#8211;the best and worst of human relationships.</p>
<p>This is all to say that I am sympathetic to pain and hurt that some present and former members of our church have had with Joseph Smith. I understand that pain. I&#8217;ve experienced that myself. However, I want to lift up the idea that our complicated (perhaps for some estranged) relationship with Joseph Smith may blind us to how he has positively shaped our denomination. In Mouw&#8217;s terms, we verge on idolatry by not treating him fairly. Just something to consider for the new year.</p>
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